From ???@??? Thu Jul 11 18:47:51 1996
X-State:  3
X-Total-length:     32297
Received: from NS.MPGN.COM (NS.MPGN.COM [206.66.87.254]) by mail-e2a-service.gnn.com (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA00062; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:33:22 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by NS.MPGN.COM (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA14369 for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:32:28 -0400
X-UIDL: 837137734.034
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:32:28 -0400
Message-Id: <199607111732.NAA14369@NS.MPGN.COM>
From: owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
To: traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #237
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
Precedence: bulk


Traveller-digest           Thursday, 11 July 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 237

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller E-Mag
         2. Hiver & Ithklur
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #226
         4. The Energy Standard, was: The Iridium Standard
         5. Re: Traveller E-Mag -Reply
         6. Energy standard & British Empire
         7. Re: Is the Imperium an impossibility? (Was: The Iridium Standard)
         8. Two-Tiered Oligarchy
         9. Surgical Strikers
        10. Re: QSD Spreadsheet
        11. Re: The Iridium Standard
        12. Re: Corn Dogs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:12:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller E-Mag

At the risk of self-promotion, check my pages with lynx and with
netscrape, I think they work just fine with either.  I agree; too many
companies are putting up sites that are no longer text friendly.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:24:40 -0500
Subject: Hiver & Ithklur

>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
>Subject: Re: Corn Dogs
>
>This is generally not the point of ANY alien race in a WELL-DEVELOPED 
>story or RPG session.  The Hivers should have very good motivations 
>for why they do, what they do...it shouldn't be dark and mysterious 
>to a referee.  It will often be different than what a human would do 
>in the same circumstances, but if its a mystery to referee, its just 
>plain not a well developed alien...its a cardboard cutout caricature 
>of an alien...this is my biggest beef with H&I...it contradicted 
>previous references, and it didn't really develop them all that well 
>in the direction it took it (other than wrapping it in mystery)... 
>
>Actually, looking back at this aspect of it, it gives me the feel of 
>a lot of the old cold war propaganda films made in the US about the 
>Communists.  Wrapping them in an aura of mysterious evil, that made 
>them less than human, and therefore more acceptable as an enemy.  
>There should be so much more than that to an alien, and in the older 
>alien modules (including the original GDW ones) there was.  There 
>wasn't much of that in H&I though.

I'll admit that the Hiver are shrouded in mystery in the Players section,
but I felt that every part of the mystery that needed to be resolved was
resolved.  Sure, GDW didn't come right out and say that the Hiver
manipulated the collapse, but I don't immagine the original Droyne manual
declared the secrets of the ancients either.


>...I own it, as well as Hivers and Ithklur...and have read them, so I 
>feel that I do know what I'm talking about.  
>...
>> help it back to the stars.  I find this incredible, and very realistic.  I
>> don't think the Hiver section is intended to be chocked full of jokes, but
>> the distruse of the person writing the comments is humourous at times, but
>> just think about the comments he makes.  They Make a lot of sense!!!  The
>
>Great...but I can buy books of humor for a lot less than $14...
>And dismissing somebody else's considered opinion of a book as 
>childish, is in itself childish...

I'm sorry if you misunderstood my point, but what I intended to refer to as
childish was peoples opinions that were stated without direct knowledge of
the book.  If you have the book and have read it, I don't think your opinion
(whatever it is) is childish; however, to discount a plot device (Virus) or
a book (H&I) without knowing the facts is childish.


>> Please don't misunderstand, I'm not intending to imply anything about the
>> issue of cannon.  I just am referring to H&I as a part of the TNE library.
>> I have very little MT material and even less CT material (not choice, just
>> devine intervention) so I con't really comment on the "cannon" issue.
>
>Great...then you have NO reason to bash those of us who were here 
>before and do have a lot of old stuff, for disliking H&I...

Again, I'm not bashing anyone who knows the material.  I'm a bit perterbed
by those who don't know the material and yet continue to bash TNE and its
supplements.  I regret that I didn't get involved with Traveller earlier so
that I could have had the opportunity to gather the CT & MT material.  If I
had the CT & MT supplements on the Hiver, I might be less inclined to like
Hiver & Ithklur.  I don't think that apart from the "cannon" issue there is
any problem with Hiver & Ithklur.  If the previous stuff had never been
done, Hiver & Ithklur would be a wealth of information, enough for any
referee to run a Hiver or Ithklur PC or NPC.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: gsw@aloft.att.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:25:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #226

Not to let a bad thread die...

On Wednesday, July 10, Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> wrote:
> There would be reletively safe systems, perhaps Virus couldn't control
> the system properly but it could probably lay an "egg" in there.

I'll buy that, as long as by "probably" you mean because 99.9% of the
technology *happens* to be vulnerable in some way or another. In other
words, future engineers continued down the path of thinking that their
puny attempts at adding security into basically unsafe systems actually
did any good. This is believable because its happening now.

But...

Suppose there is a culture that does not trust computers to make their
decisions for them. Computers that did exist would only *recommend*
actions to be taken. High-tech equipment can still exist, but it would
not be programmable, nor controllable from other than the console or
other manual controls. Sure, Virus-infected machines might be able to
physically modify the equipment (each one individually!), but they
should otherwise not be vulnerable to infection. Nor could Virus "lay
an egg" in them other than by physically modifying them.

You can certainly argue that this culture would always be lagging in
tech level, but so what? Many planets did--this could explain why a
planet in an otherwise "advanced" section of the galaxy did.

By the same token, future technology has always given us a much greater
understanding of past technology. Using TL8 technology, I could *prove*
that a piece of TL6 (or maybe even TL7) technology is safe. No amount
of knowledge would allow you to break into that system. Is this done
today? Certainly. Unfortunately, many people (especially modern weapons
designers) like to have the most advanced computers at their disposal,
so we are forced to use the less-powerful "trusted" systems as a form
of gateway to the more powerful systems, which may be vulnerable to
more subtle attacks like your "egg". However, if modern technology is
not used, the system need not be vulnerable. For example, many of the
ships in the U.S. Navy still use 1940's technology (vaccuum tubes!) and
make up for the lack of automation with a larger crew.

Finally, even modern technology, if well-understood, can be designed
in a "safe" way. Early microwave ovens, for example, did not have any
microchips inside. Undoubtedly, many are still being designed with
tried-and-true (read: Virus-safe) hard-wired microcontrollers. Sure,
many of them are probably being built with more advanced controllers
that *might* be vulnerable if there were some way of communicating
control information to them. But even if you claim that the latter
are all vulnerable, there are still millions of microwaves that are
not.

Do you see my point? Virus-free technology does exist. My mechanical
pencil is not vulnerable, nor is my electro-mechanical watch. Given
time, I could prove to you that my electronic watch is not either.
I'm certain that my Sega Genesis is safe even if Virus had access
to the joystick ports (although I'd rather not go through the proof).
Of course, I can't prove that my PC and UNIX workstations are safe
(I'm quite sure they're not). I think that this will be the trend in
the future. The more modern computers will tend to be networked and
integrated, and vulnerable to a sufficiently advanced attack. Older
computers would be thoroughly understood using current technology,
and tend not to be vulnerable.

Note that I'm not talking about making physical modifications. Of
course, any equipment that can be physically altered is vulnerable,
regardless of whether it uses silicon, optics, or gears to operate.
I've heard claims that the Deyo transponders provided a way for
virus to do this (they had to be given a "silicon conduit" to the
main computer's memory). Of course, if I were paranoid about such
things (e.g., if I were a pirate or a non-Imperial), I would at
least spoof the transponder by connecting it to an isolated "main
computer". In any event, this does not help give Virus a foothold
into hand computers and other non-transponder-equipped equipment.

There is no need to make grand claims about seemingly impossible
actions that Virus can take. Plenty of technology that is vital to
us is already likely to be vulnerable this type of intrusion. For
example, phreakers have long made use of knowledge of the phone
system--Virus would simply use this knowledge to control it. It
could easily take over commerce, air-traffic control, even the
electrical grids from there. With increased computer control and
networking in the future, it is easy to envision a society that
would crumble easily before Virus.

> I agree, I've always had a problem with the chips being able to
> rewrite themselves.

We have chips that do this now. Self-modifying code is a simple
example, but there are even chips that essentially *rewire*
themselves. But not all of these are vulnerable to Virus, nor
does *all* equipment use them. This will still be true in the
57th century.

> As for Virus safe systems, I beleive that the Regency is working on
> these, and as yet they haven't built one.

This is illogical. I would buy that they have not been able to
build a Virus-safe starship computer, perhaps. But they certainly
can build safe hand computers. I'm certain (but don't intend to
prove) that we have these now. I could certainly *design* one and
*prove* that it is safe if I had to.

> > The other thing that certainly bothered many old-timers was the
> > throwing away of the stable campaign background.
> 
> I think that this is many long time Traveller player's biggest problem 
> with Virus.

Yes, and part of why Virus is such a powderkeg (especially since
Rob has encouraged XTML'ers to use the TML for T4 discussions).
Actually, the campaign background destabilized during the MT days,
so much of the blame is misplaced.

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-



------------------------------

From: Vanya <dmoody@bridge.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:39:53 -0500
Subject: The Energy Standard, was: The Iridium Standard

> From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:23:51 +0100
> Subject: The Energy Standard, was: The Iridium Standard
> 
> Hi there
> 
> I seem to recall some SF book (an E. E. Smith?) in which a fledgling
> empire, or one that had just survived/avoided a major upheaval, went
> on the Energy Standard - ie. a credit would be worth x amount of
> energy, and rationally all goods would be valued in terms of the
> energy spent to create them. 
[snip]
> Any one with some idea of economics (reflected sounds of underground
> little people) care to comment on the viability of this?
> 
> Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

	Howard Scott, the owner of a paint and floor-wax company in 
Greenwich Villagy in New York proposed such a system in the early 1930's 
(just after the depression hit.)  He urged that people get pain in ergs 
and joules acording to the amount of energy the machines they operated 
produced.
	This "Technocracy" was to change the structure of society, where 
the ruling class would be composed of scientists and engineers.  
	Scott became and overnight celebrity, and was given space for 
research at Columbia U.  For months in 1933, his theories were among the 
most discussed topics in America, til the cult of Technocracy faded away.

	Of course, this didn't stop me from using his ideas on a couple 
of planets in my Traveller campaign.
- -- 
 _____
|* * *|	-Vanya
|  ^  |	 "Conquering Russia is a
 \/ \/	steppe by steppe process."
  \ /

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.ahp.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:45:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller E-Mag -Reply

>At the risk of self-promotion, check my pages with lynx and with
>netscrape, I think they work just fine with either.  I agree; too many
>companies are putting up sites that are no longer text friendly.

You know, I've never even thought about this. I just logged into my shell
account and looked at my own page with Lynx, and it looks horrible (only
tested it with Netscape). On a hunch, I checked out my company's page,
which uses frames (http://www.ahpc.com). Looked even worse (no, I
didn't write it, but I do know who to blame). I wonder how many other
commercial-type sites totally disregard Lynx users?

Thanks, Joe, for clueing me in. I think Jeff should definitely try to support
all web users with his WebMag.


Rich Sezov, Programmer/Analyst--Networks
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com
Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr


------------------------------

From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:05:47 +0100
Subject: Energy standard & British Empire

Hi there

>I've always wondered what British schools taught about that little
>upset.

Well, nothing in my school!

Incidentally, a common reference point in CT for the way in which a
big empire operated were the empires of the 18th and 19th centuries,
ie. the European holdings in America, Africa, and Asia.  These all
operated under tremendous communicatino lags, and local governors had
tremendous latitude.  The main difference is that the progress of
technology and politics in the Imperium hasn't resulted in a) instant
comm or b) widespread independence.  As a result, the "independent
individual on the spot" method of management has had far more time to
develop.


>Antimatter p-plants consume antimatter which presumably has to be
>manufactured in a fusion plant.

Well, only at the begining.  In an anti-matter economy, anti-matter
plants could be used to run your Creato-Anti-Matter (tm) machine.

I'm not sure what I'm getting at with the "Energy Standard", but I
think the idea is that the credit is pegged to how effectively an
energy-dependent economy can generate the energy it needs.  Would this
work?  Perhaps a credit could be called a Joule?  "I want 10 MJ to
fight for your side, President".

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:08:07 GMT
Subject: Re: Is the Imperium an impossibility? (Was: The Iridium Standard)

On Jul 10, 1996 20:41:32, 'Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>' wrote: 
 
>On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote: 
> 
>> Folks, if you want to know the truth, I doubt an empire the size of 
>> the Imperium could be put together and endure very long.  Travel and 
>> communication times are just too long.  It would have to *very* loose, 
>> more Commonwealth (if not Common Market) than Empire.  I'd say a few 
>> sectors would be about the largest *maintainable* size, maybe a couple 
>> of months to travel from an edge to the center. 
>>  
>> How's this for a new topic to discuss? <g> 
 
>Sounds good to me. :)  I hope it doesn't become a flame war, though. 
> 
>It's hard to say what size of a maintainable empire can be sustaind for  
>a good length of time.  The only real examples we have are the Roman  
>Empire and the empire largely created by Genghis Kahn. At least, those  
>two seem most relevant to the discussion, IMO. 
 
a few more examples: the British Empire in the 18th and early 19th 
centuries, when it spanned the globe in the Age of Sail, but 
before telegraph cables were laid across the Atlantic and 
to India. Also, the ancient Persian Empire was quite large, 
as was the Incan Empire at it's height. 
 
In the Roman, Persian and British Empires, we see regional 
governors/satraps/etc. give a great deal of power locally, 
as time/distance to higher authority prohibited close management 
from "home".  The 3rd Imperium seems to have aimed at a 
similiar setup with the Sector & Subsector Dukes. 
 
I'll leave for further discussion how well this works... 
 
                  --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"O Grave, where is thy victory? Death, where is thy sting?" 
                                                --Alexander Pope 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:58:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Two-Tiered Oligarchy

Thus spake Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>:

> On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> > Second, the Imperium is modeled (it seems to me) on mercantile empires
> > rather than capitalism.  Similar empires in our past where strongly
> > tied to a centralized authority working on a gold standard. Their goal
> > was to exploit the periphery pulling wealth into the center from where
> > the oligarchy ruled.
> 
> The Third Imperium was only partially centralised. Each Grand Duke was a 
> king in his own right, taking cues and vuage directions from 
> Capital/Core, and implememting them in his Domain. If there was an 
> oligarchy, it was a 2 tiered one.

The power of the Archdukes varied depending on what era of the Third 
Imperium they ruled in.  From reading "Survival Margin," and much of the 
MegaTraveller material that gave background on the Rebellion/Final War, I 
inferred that the pre-Strephon archdukes weren't truly kings in their own 
right, but served more as administrators of the Domains.  It's been 
theorized that Strephon's reemphasis of the powers of the archdukes, 
while taking some of the administrative strain off of Capital, was one of 
the factors that lead to the increasing factionalism that led to the 
Rebellion after his apparent assassination.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: "R. Michael Stephens" <mikes@mathcs.emory.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:05:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Surgical Strikers

> Derek Stanley wrote
> David Jaques-Watson wrote:
> > 
> > Are there other options?
> Honestly I've never considered the Marines (bunch of guy's in 
> battledress) a surgical strike team.  No offence to any Marine's out 
> there.  The Marines are an elite beachhead assault force who's primary 
> focus in traveller is ship board duties including boarding actions and 
> primary DZ securing.  Along with this you could potentially throw in 
> pacification campaigns.  Not wanting to start the flame war again but the 
> Marine's are the Imperium's "Big Stick" of ground combat.

No offence taken :^) -- That is basically the rol eof any naval infantry or
airborne unit today, and likely to be the role for their euivalents in 
Trav-Times.

> 
> I feel that a surgical strike team is probably best exemplified by your 
> second example.  Commando's.  These are guy's who get in, get out and no 
> one know's they've been there untill the powerplant or whatever explodes. 
>  In TNE these guys are known as Special Forces,

Special Operations, I believe.  The term noiw allpied to any Elite of 
the Elite type forces that have missions that fall into clasifications 
which are outside th4 main thrusts of the 'conventioanl' war fighting.
Commandos suits as well - basically all services/nations have them as 
even in NonConventional/ "Low-Intensity" (Unless you're in the middle of it)
conflicts, the services and even nations have different foci and objectives.

In the US -
Marines -- Force Recon, and Recon Sniper Teams
Navy    -- Seals
Army    -- Rangers, Special Forces, (veitnam and _non_ elite) LRRP
Air Force -- Air Commandoes (primarily IIRC mission airfield capture 
airhead establishment.

British SAS, French Forign Legion Paras, USSR Spetznatz etc etc etc  

> the Surgical Strike team 
> would be point laser designators infiltrated on a planet months before 
> the strike occured, these would be the guy's in charage of insuring that 
> "Mortimer Crane, Supreme Dictator of Gault and Generalisimo for life" has 
> an unfortunate accident on his way to the prom.  I think the main point 
> of a surgical strike team is if they can get in and get out without 
> firing a shot they've done their job correctly, if they get into a fire 
> fight they've screwed it up royally.

All usually true especially the last, although sometimes the job is to 
make as much ruckus as possible as a diversion.  The military, esp. US, 
has an unfortunate tendancy to forget the above and think they have super 
soliders and use them incorrectly or ineffectivley.  Check out the 
coareers of the Rangers in WWII.

For a much better discussion than I can give, esp in an RPG perspective 
check out GURPS Special OPs, even if you hate the system there is alot of 
great info and flavor there. 


The Imperial marines would tend to have their own such units although 
many smaller ships complments might need to be a bit more trained in this 
respect than we would see today.  Tho' these guys tend to  not make great 
spit-n-polish soldiers!

|===========================================================================|
|           Mike Stephens, UNIX Systems Programmer/Admin  BIMCORE           |
|   Biomolecular Comupting Resource, Emory University, Atlanta, Ga, USA     |
|  email: rms@bimcore.emory.edu or mikes@mathcs.emory.edu or rms@emory.edu  |
|                                                                           |
| My opinions are my own for better or worse and do not represent those of  |
|              of Emory University or its affiliates                        |
|                                                                           |
|===========================================================================|



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:13:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: QSD Spreadsheet

On 11 Jul 1996, Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus wrote:

> Yo Folkes,
>   Due to popular demand (and I'm getting tired of UUENCODE)
> I've uploaded my QSD spreadsheet to a public ftp site.
>     ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav/qsd.WK1
>     ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav/qsd.WK4

Jo,

Thanks for putting that up there!  I downloaded the WK4 version.

>   I'd like someone else to proof it. Seems OK to me.

One problem I found (and perhaps it was caused by the transfer-such 
things have been known to happen):  If you try to build a ship with no 
missiles, this produces an ERROR result in several cells, which dribbles 
it down to cargo space, hull, power plant, and all sorts of things.  
Makes it impossible to do a design without having a misile launcher.

>   I only support the basic hulls. The WK4 has the huge-list-of-hulls
> table in it but it isn't linked in (yet).

I look forward to when this list will be linked in.


Thanks again for sharing your work,


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:29:37 GMT
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On Jul 11, 1996 08:45:42, 'Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>' wrote:

 
>Quoth Stuart L. Dollar: 
>> The Roman Empire in part was wrecked by a ruinous inflation in later  
>> centuries...they never left a standard based on precious metals... 
 
>Actually, in defense of "Cynthia" (Steve, right?) (though I disagree wth 
>him),  
 
No, I *am* Cynthia.  I sign my own name to my letters, and so 
does Steve.  Steve is over on the gdw-beta list.  We do have 
similar views on economics, differing only on whether or not 
a government is a useful thing to have around or not. 
 
>I must point out that part of the "problem" for Rome _was_ the 
>precious metal standard: by the later empire the coinage was so debased 
>(adulterated with less valuable metals in order to be able to mint more 
>currency with the same amount of metal) that it caused widespread 
>economic difficulties. 
 
Yup. You saved me the trouble of pointing that out.  A gold 
standard doesn't prevent inflation, but it does make gov'mnt 
finagling of the money supply a *lot* more obvious. 
 
>Other folks have claimed that elemental abundances shouldn't vary much 
>between stellar systems, and thus a Gold/Iridium/Unobtainium standard 
>would be workable.  But, while the abundances wouldn't vary much, the 
>_exploitation_ and hence _available supply_ would.  There used to be 
>places on Earth where you could pick up copper nuggets off the ground... 
>but not after the Bronze Age got going.  Gold deposits were few and 
>far between in the Old World after centuries of mining... and then the 
>New World gave a bonanza of riches to the Spanish (which wrecked their 
>economy in just the way people are supposing!  I don't think they've 
>ever quite recovered... though problems like Franco have also intervened).

 
Spain's economy collapsed for the same reason the Reform Coalition's 
economy was going to collapse: they were looting so much wealth from 
the New World, that local industries back in Spain couldn't compete, 
and went under.  With no local industry, when Spain lost control of 
its overseas possessions, the local economy went into a tailspin 
from which it still hasn't recovered--in part due to socialist  
or fascist economic policies like Franco's. 
 
>Terra, Vland, Sylea, Zhdant, all have long histories of mineral 
>exploration and exploitation.  The discovery of a virgin, uninhabited 
>planet with untapped veins of precious metal could cause a significant 
>blip in precious metal supplies throughout the young Imperium, or at 
>least through a Domain in the full-sized jumbo version of 1000+. 
 
As did the gold strikes in the U.S... And what did discovering 
that field of jade boulders in Canada do to the price of jade 
as a semi-precious mineral? 
 
                         --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"O Grave, where is thy victory? Death, where is thy sting?" 
                                                --Alexander Pope 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:32:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs

Thus spake Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>:

> Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> >>Hmmm...when I asked Dave, he said that the consumables in question 
> >>were something akin to roasted sea cucumbers (actually, compared to 
> >>what the Hivers normally eat, this is rather appetizing). Did he 
> >>change his mind?
> >>
> >>LKW
> > 
> >Gee, once again Loren saves the day.  No, to answer Loren's question, 

[Paul Walker indicates the true canon regarding Hiver 'corn dogs' and his 
 own feeling regarding H&I, and the reaction to it]

> I'm sorry if I confused some people I don't own a copy of "Sneaks and 
> Geeks" so I'm quoting directly out of the TNE novel "To Dream of Chaos."

[quote from novel snipped]
 
> Well the conversation goes on from there to describe the life cycle of 
> the worm etc.  Its on pages 77-78 for those of you who are interested.

BZZZZT!  I'm afraid that you've hit one of my Hot Buttons.  Sorry!

The TNE novels can hardly be considered an adequate source of Traveller 
canon.  In fact, one of the things I found most offensive about them 
besides the author's writing style (Addicted to the Subordinate Clause) 
were the frequent "facts" presented that were contrary to established 
canon.  Among them:

Firing 'warning shots across the bow' with a laser.  Stop giggling!

The continuous operation of a jump drive while in J-space.  No, I don't 
think he ever read DGP's "Starship Operator's Manual," either.

The 'true nature' of Hiver 'corn dogs.'  Whoops.  Already touched on that 
one.  Sorry.

For the record:  Lacking pig-derived frankfurters, or even pigs, the 
Hivers chose an aquatic annelid species (sort of like sea cucumbers) to 
be the frankfurter substitute.  They are quite palatable, even to humans 
provided that they don't know what they really are.  One possible source 
of confusion might be that terrestrial leeches, which are bloodsucking 
parasites, also happen to be annelids (segmented worms).

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #237
**********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".
